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Author Topic: Starter Voltage- How to Determine?  (Read 23718 times)

imperial1960

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Re: Starter Voltage- How to Determine?
« Reply #15 on: March 10, 2015, 02:33:42 PM »
Sent pictures to your email Haymaker! Prince becarfull with the starting fluild and using glow plugs!!!
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Haymaker

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Re: Starter Voltage- How to Determine?
« Reply #14 on: March 10, 2015, 02:07:20 PM »
Well 1st off the batteries  and battery cables look in poor shape/neglected. Probably has been sitting for years.   Those batteries should be checked to be sure they have good CCA, the cable terminals look dirty (poor conections) and cable themselves look suspect.  VERY important that the connections are clean also even where the cable is clamped into the positive terminal on the right battery there looks bad too.  I suspect that originally it had two 6 volts in series and someone rigged that up. What ever the case there are two cables there that are not OEM so its been modified.  The 2 12volts will work fine too if its all rigged up correctly.
I'd clean all conections off with a battery terminal cleaning tool and a good old wire brush 1st!  Also looks like they ran the ground from the left battery to the ground terminal on isolator switch as well which will work.  Just make sure that conection is all good. Take off the nut clean it all good with wire brush.  Also check the ground 

As for cranking speed once all the cables terminals are clean, known good batteries and it still cranks slow then we'll go further.  May have to check for voltage drop on the + and - circuits etc.  Your's is like Imperial1960's maybe he'd  shoot a video of his cranking over ...  ;)  Or if you want to take a video of your's cranking over and we'll tell you if it sounds suspect and where to go next.

As for glow plugs that one is different then mine I have the manifold pre heater gizmo no the glow plugs. I believe if the glow plugs are working they work good. Disconnect the wire to the glow plug terminals and check if they're burnt out but using an ohm meter. Or hook the test  to positive and touch other end to each glow plug. Test light should light up (like touching it to the frame) if not the plug is burn't out "open".  If they all test good then we'll go from there and check into the wiring feeding the glow plugs. 


What also slows down cranking when cold is ...OIL..  If  it has old 30W oil in it and its below freezing its going to crank harder then if it has say 10w-30 or 0W-40 synthetic.  Just how cold is it there when you're trying to start it as everyones difinition of  "cold" is different.  My tractor cranks over always fine and when its below freezing I plug it in, only takes an hr. to warm up when plugged in.   If not and its around freezing I just give it a little  shot of ether in the air intake opening on the hood while cranking and she fires up right away.
 
There is several checks and things you should probably do before putting it to work but first lets fix you're starting issue. How's the fuel look in the tank??  There is drain valves to drain off water on the tanks i think plus on fuel filter bowls.  Probably wouldn't hurt if this things been sitting out side for years.
And more pics the better of the engine, fuel filters tractor in general well help us pin point issues for you. 
 
« Last Edit: March 10, 2015, 02:15:27 PM by Haymaker »
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imperial1960

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Re: Starter Voltage- How to Determine?
« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2015, 01:30:08 PM »
If you are going to run two 12.8 volt battery(less cca) instead of two 6volt batterys then I would hook up the ground from the left battery to the ground of the right top battery post. Picture shows ground cable going down not sure where. Get a DVM (checks realtime voltage not bright or dim test light) and check voltage at batterys 12.8 normal then load test batterys  then check volts (DVM NOT A TEST LIGHT) at the first glow plug and the next glow plug light.At the top of each glow plug check to see if tight.Check each wire (or replace) going to each glow plug the wires go bad when the top nut gets loose.If no voltage at glow plugs check switch or wiring to glow plugs are bad.The reason dash glass is not glowing red is defective coil inside split) or no wiring going to the light look under the dash check glow light connection or just bypass it .Recheck voltage at glow plugs.If one of the glow plug element is bad it will still send volts to all the other plugs There are insulators on top of the glow plugs dont loose them. Date code on picture batterys look like 2011 and cant see CCA of the 12volt batterys.Check all connection to and from batterys Orange paint on this starter is or looks like a OEM starter to me. Voltage drop test check your battery standing volts then while starting check voltage drop.Then send starter to have it checked out! Shine flash light inside fuel tank look for water too then do same to all fuel filters.All 562 in my area are 12volt with two 6volt batterys in series. Good luck let us know!
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Prince of Bales

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Re: Starter Voltage- How to Determine?
« Reply #12 on: March 09, 2015, 11:15:08 PM »
I was able to get out to where my tractor is yesterday but unfortunately only got to spend a short time with it.  I did get it started though- with 12V.  Yesterday was considerably warmer than the other days when I tried to start it.  It still cranked over more slowly than I think it should.  I am not sure that the glow plugs are functioning.  I held the starter key in the position just before starter engagement and watched the glow plug indicator but it never turned red.  I put a test light on the first glow plug's terminal and it is getting power there when the key is held in that position.  I checked for continuity from the first glow plug to the ground connection of the last one and there was continuity.  It looks like these are connected in series so it would seem that if one of them fails (open) none of them will work- unless there is something within each plug to complete the circuit regardless of the heating element's state.  If that is the case, I am not sure how to check them since a continuity check would have an OK result even if the plug does not function.  Any hints on this?
I have attached a better picture of my starter and a picture of my battery box.  Note that these 12V batteries are connected in parallel (positive to positive) for a total of 12V.  At the left end of the battery box there is a smaller wire (red within a black sheath) that is not connected.  Can anyone tell me what this goes to?  Apparently it is supposed to connect to the positive post, but I wanted to know what it feeds before I connect it.  Also, there seems to be a lead coming off of the negative cable, also not connected to anything.  Any ideas about where that is supposed to go?  Maybe an accessory that has been removed?
If this is in fact a 12V starter, it is performing very poorly.  I acknowledge that the connections to the starter could use cleaning, but I wanted to confirm the starter voltage first since that is the more important question.  Unfortunately I have a very limited amount of time with my tractor so I try to gather as much information as I can so that I can decide how to best spend my time when I can go and do some things with it.  Thanks for the great input so far.  I suppose I need some glow plug help also.
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imperial1960

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imperial1960

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Re: Starter Voltage- How to Determine?
« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2015, 03:57:01 PM »
My batterys two of them 6volt sit side by side 1170 cold crank at 32 degree thats 2300 cca from two batterys looking from rear of the tractor  left to right pos post is on the left side hook these two batterys up in series to get 12 volt!Neg post connects to the battery disconnect switch.The only reason I ask about water in oil or barring over engine is you possably could be making more resistance to the starter making it turn over harder.On the dash there is a glass window this will glow bright red when key switch is turned does this light glow?If not bypass indicator and count to ten seconds this will send volts to glow plugs making engine start.Then when you turn key switch farther to the right it should send volts to starter solinode.This could be why they tryed to jump sol/to large cable this is a no no.My glow plug indicator and starter switch failed so I by passed them.Easy to do this inside when you raise the steel flip dash.I dont know for sure if your tractor is 24 volts but my bet its 12volts.No spell check here sorry I will take a picture of my battery box for you later.
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Prince of Bales

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Re: Starter Voltage- How to Determine?
« Reply #9 on: March 07, 2015, 10:49:28 PM »
I had hoped to get out to where my tractor is today to take some pictures but I didn't make it. I will try to do so tomorrow.  The tag on the starter that is visible in the picture is just a warning not to jump across the terminals. When I bought the tractor it looked like someone had just put a battery in it (the battery was much cleaner than anything else around it).  There was just the one battery, which was on the left end of the battery box, with an empty place beside of it with the second ground cable lying there and a second short positive cable that was just lying in the box (not connected to anything on either end).  It had a battery post connector on one end and a relatively small eye connector on the other.
The comment about water in the oil scares me. I sure hope not. I will be changing the oil in a week or two so I will find out then for sure. It seemed to run great when it was running.  The number on my engine data plate is 25829 in case someone has some way to check that out for me (which type of starter it came with).  Otherwise maybe I can contact the reference that was given below (thanks for that).
I just found out how to disengage the hydraulic pump from the manual I bought so I may try that too to see if it improves the starting speed. I know that isn't the answer but maybe it will help to get it started until I can come to some sort of solution.
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Haymaker

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Re: Starter Voltage- How to Determine?
« Reply #8 on: March 07, 2015, 01:57:24 PM »
The pull to start raise red flag to me with one 12volt battery.My 562 has 2-6volt battery delivering 12 volts to starter.I would first check engine by barring over the motor from the front at the crankshaft.Then kick out the hydralic pump see if engine bars over then check for water in oil all of these could be a hard to start.Possable you have the wrong voltage starter check out engine serial number with dealer to see if it came out with 24 volt starter.
So your tractor has the two 6 volt batteries, then it doesn't have series/parallel  set up like my 825 does as there would be no need.  I wonder what his battery box set up looks like,  then we would have a better idea on what's up.
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imperial1960

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Re: Starter Voltage- How to Determine?
« Reply #7 on: March 07, 2015, 01:42:56 PM »
The pull to start raise red flag to me with one 12volt battery.My 562 has 2-6volt battery delivering 12 volts to starter.I would first check engine by barring over the motor from the front at the crankshaft.Then kick out the hydralic pump see if engine bars over then check for water in oil all of these could be a hard to start.Possable you have the wrong voltage starter check out engine serial number with dealer to see if it came out with 24 volt starter.
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Haymaker

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Re: Starter Voltage- How to Determine?
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2015, 11:11:41 AM »
I'd still like to see what that all looks like as you know its very hard to diagnose over the net with out seeing exactly what you got and I'd hate to lead you down the wrong path!!  With buying a used one of these tractors or any brand for that matter when someone has been fooling around changing stuff it can be frusterating!!!

 For someone to remove the series/parallel  unit, change the cables/wiring back there, and leave a 24 votlt starter in there .... seems odd and unlikely.    As there would be more stuff needed to be modified under youre dash as well. There is no issue with the rest of the tractor's electrical system as its all 12 volt, even with the 24 starter stystem the rest of the tractor is 12 volt.  The cables to the starter should be fine either way. You have to be sure you have good contections and cover all the basics before you start ordering parts/changing things.   When you boosted it did you hook the ground cable to the actual tractor frame or engine block?  Who knows there could be an issue with the ground disconnect switch/circuit etc.  You could also go directly to the starter with booster cables (good heavy booster cables) and eleminated all the wiring.   negative - to the frame + to the big terminal bolt/stud on the starter solenoid Then have someone try and crank it over.  For this test make sure its in neutral , parking brake on, and have someone pushing in the clutch to insure it doesn't move when the starter cranks!  You can also bypass the solenoid on the starter, there is 2 stuts on the solenoid one for the battery supply and one to the starter brushes.
 
As for 12 volt starters I'm sure you've googled it by now and saw there is lots of  aftermarket starter options out there for it or from the guys you got your manual from plus several more online line belarus part companies. If it indeed has been rigged up for a 12 volt starter, the wiring is all up to par,  and you have a defective 12 starter or a ... 24 volt starter then yes looks like just changing the starter would be the quickest fix for you.  As a starter on that thing with no loader bracket in the way  is a 15 minute job.

 In  your case  though being new to the machine and unsure just what has or hasn't been done to I would  talk on the phone to a  Belarus/MTZ dealer in the USA before modifing or buying parts just yet.  These guys Lubiniecki Welding & Equipment have been a belarus dealer for like 30 years!!  They should know  what you need for parts to get rolling. They also list that they have used parts, rebuild parts and so forth. Again pics of your battery box  cable setup  and starter would be very helpfull to them as well or any other serial numbers or part numbers like on the starter etc.  Looks like from the pic below there is a tag on the starter.  See if you can read the part # or take a pic of it. 

Let us know what you find.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2015, 11:54:05 AM by Haymaker »
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Prince of Bales

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Re: Starter Voltage- How to Determine?
« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2015, 10:32:01 PM »
The black plastic thing that should be between the batteries (the series / parallel switch) is missing therefore I do not have 24V for sure.  My two 12V batteries are connected in parallel.
From here, it seems that I have two options:
1- Find a series / parallel switch
2- Replace the 24V starter with a 12V starter
I am leaning towards option 2 because from what small amount of searching I have done so far, this switch seems to cost $100 or more.  It appears that I can replace the starter for not too much more than that.
I have two main concerns about replacing the starter with a 12V version though:
-What about the glow plugs?  Are they supplied with 24V or 12V?  I think 12 but I would like to know for sure.  The electrical schematic in my manual does not include the glow plug circuit.
-Will I need to replace the battery cable to the starter with a heavier gauge since it will need to carry more current with 12V compared with 24V?  From what I remember, the cable seems fairly heavy so it may be OK as is.
Does anyone have experience with a 24 to 12V starter conversion?  Is there perhaps a cross-over from a more common application, for which the starter may be more readily available and less expensive (a light / medium truck for example)?
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Haymaker

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Re: Starter Voltage- How to Determine?
« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2015, 01:43:00 AM »
Ok then by what your manual  says you have a 24 volt starting system like my 825.  There should be a black plastic thing beween the batteries there where the batt. cables hook to.  Many things could be causing your slow cranking.  1st make sure you're getting 24 volts (just use any DC digital volt meter) at the starter when cranking, make sure all batt. conections are good  and that the batteries are good etc.   There are more things to check but check the basics 1st.
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Prince of Bales

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Re: Starter Voltage- How to Determine?
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2015, 11:17:37 PM »
The starter appears to be original- it is painted the same as the rest of the engine and shows no signs of ever having been removed or otherwise disturbed.  The tractor is not located at my home so I can't go out and take any pictures, but I have zoomed in on the starter area on a picture I had of the left side of the tractor.  I have attached that here.  It may be too fuzzy and / or small to be of any help though.  As far as the battery box goes, there are currently two 12V batteries in there, connected in series.  No signs of a series / parallel switch.  When I go out to where the tractor is this weekend, I will try to take some pictures.
As for an owners' manual, unfortunately I did not get one with the tractor.  I have bought one however.  The one I have is P/N 904806 R1, from Belarus Tractor International (the North American version of the manual).  I must say, this is a good manual- well written and thoughtfully put together and it answered a lot of questions that I had.  Since it covers several models however, some sections, such as the one concerning the starter / electrical system, are somewhat general.  Regarding the starter / electrical system, it says that the tractor may be equipped with two 6V batteries connected in series and a 12V starter, or two 12V batteries with a series / parallel switch and a 24V starter.  I would really like to confirm if this starter is in fact 24V because that would explain my starting issue for sure.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2015, 11:25:51 PM by Prince of Bales »
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Haymaker

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Re: Starter Voltage- How to Determine?
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2015, 12:51:27 AM »
I believe thats 24 volts unless someone has been fooling with it.   Take some pics of  your starter and battery box.  Did it come with an owners manual by chance?   
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Prince of Bales

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Starter Voltage- How to Determine?
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2015, 11:14:38 PM »
I bought my Belarus 562 last month at an auction.  It was running when I checked it out prior to the auction, but the auction company said that they had to pull start it because the battery was weak.  After "winning" the auction (I am still debating if it was actually a win), I attempted to start it and the starter turned the engine very slowly- seemed to be a weak battery just as they said (it had a single, large 12V battery in it).  When I came back to take the tractor home, I bought along 2 good (12V) batteries.  When I connected these (in parallel), it was just as it was with the original battery- very slow to turn the engine (too slow to start).  I thought about voltage drop due to poor cables and connections, so I used jumper cables to connect along with the tractor's cables.  There was no improvement.  Very disappointed, I had to have the tractor pulled up onto a rollback and hauled home.  I have only been able to start the engine once, by using my large battery charger / jump starter, with the voltage turned up to about 18V or so (and it barely turned fast enough to start at that).  I understand that some of these tractors are equipped with 24V starters and I am wondering if mine is.  There is no series / parallel switch in the battery box, but perhaps there was originally but was removed for some reason.  Is there a way to determine if the starter is a 12 or a 24V version?  Are there markings or part numbers that can help make that determination?  If it is a 24V starter, I will probably look for a replacement 12V version to replace it so advice concerning (economical) options for that are appreciated also.
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